Craps Wizard Of Oz

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The concept of a come bet requiring two hits is flawed for a variety of reasons. The initial roll could be a 7 or 11, meaning you could have won right there. Or it could have been a 2, 3, or 12 to lose.
By contrast, Place bets would have lost on the 7, but had no action on any other number other than the number it was place on.
If you do all the math, the result is the come bet with full odds IS better than the place bets. But is it significantly better? Define 'significantly'.
One problem with come bets is that 'full odds' thing. If you're at a 3-4-5 table (which is typical), a $5 come bet where a 6 or 8 is rolled needs $25 for full odds. By contrast, the minimum for the place bet is $6. A $10 come needs $50 for full odds. Are you comfortable with those kinds of bets? Can your bankroll handle it? If you do come bets (or pass line bets) and don't take full odds, you're giving up extra house edge.
That dealer probably knew that your come bet would not be getting full odds. So in that case, yeah, the dealer may have been giving you good advice to do place bets, but the advice was not about the math and edge, but about your bankroll. And, being a novice, getting paid sooner with the bets remaining active, would seem good - good enough for you to start taking the dealer's advice about other bets. And THAT'S where they will really get you. If a dealer starts recommending any of the bets in the middle of the table, don't listen. Those are all high house edge bets. How do you know? Because the minimum for those bets is only $1. The casino allows bets lower than the table minimum to encourage the bet, because they are such lousy bets.
Bottom line, as a beginner, Just stick with a couple place bets. If you're shooting, add a minimum pass line bet, and back it up with odds. Once you get more comfortable with the game and your bankroll increases, lingo and speed of the action, then you can start adding other bets like the come with full odds, and buying the 4 & 10.
For more info, check out the Wizard's page about craps:
http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

Sorry if this is a bit confusing I am just trying to learn which way is the better bet and why.

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what was confusing was the formatting on your first post.
I gave up trying to read it
the better bet, in my opinion, as many will give you their opinions too,
is to bet on the number that will win on the very next roll.
sounds to me you are playing the 'game of craps' and all those bets are sucker bets except for the odds bets and you should be betting on the result of the next roll of the dice. forget about the game of craps. it is a loser game for all except those that can increase their winning rates for the bets they do make.
Nows,
there are only 11 values the dice can be on the very next roll.
some roll more than others. Learn them
learning Craps is like trying to eat an Elephant in a few bites.
aints goin' to be dunn
Break up the next roll into Chewable Morsels
like
like
7 and Field and 5,6 or8

Hey, 3 bets that covers the very next roll
the very next roll will be one of those 3 bets, true
kick some ass and win!
also, watch and listen to the dice and then bet to win
playing craps = fun
winning at craps = more fun
got it?
hehe
or do you really want to play almost forever, win all the casinos money and buy the world to be King?
hahaha
Sally
Ahigh, you finish that simulation yet?
shhhh

Beginners should not bet the come bet if they want to bet odds IMO.

all craps players are either Beginners or Experts
nothing else exists
OP appears to be a beginner
Ahigh
what are you?
Sally
have you finished that simulation yet?
added for flavor:
I calculate starting simple
RoR and target hitting

The concept of a come bet requiring two hits is flawed for a variety of reasons. The initial roll could be a 7 or 11, meaning you could have won right there. Or it could have been a 2, 3, or 12 to lose.
By contrast, Place bets would have lost on the 7, but had no action on any other number other than the number it was place on.
If you do all the math, the result is the come bet with full odds IS better than the place bets. But is it significantly better? Define 'significantly'.
One problem with come bets is that 'full odds' thing. If you're at a 3-4-5 table (which is typical), a $5 come bet where a 6 or 8 is rolled needs $25 for full odds. By contrast, the minimum for the place bet is $6. A $10 come needs $50 for full odds. Are you comfortable with those kinds of bets? Can your bankroll handle it? If you do come bets (or pass line bets) and don't take full odds, you're giving up extra house edge.
That dealer probably knew that your come bet would not be getting full odds. So in that case, yeah, the dealer may have been giving you good advice to do place bets, but the advice was not about the math and edge, but about your bankroll. And, being a novice, getting paid sooner with the bets remaining active, would seem good - good enough for you to start taking the dealer's advice about other bets. And THAT'S where they will really get you. If a dealer starts recommending any of the bets in the middle of the table, don't listen. Those are all high house edge bets. How do you know? Because the minimum for those bets is only $1. The casino allows bets lower than the table minimum to encourage the bet, because they are such lousy bets.
Bottom line, as a beginner, Just stick with a couple place bets. If you're shooting, add a minimum pass line bet, and back it up with odds. Once you get more comfortable with the game and your bankroll increases, lingo and speed of the action, then you can start adding other bets like the come with full odds, and buying the 4 & 10.
For more info, check out the Wizard's page about craps:

' target='_blank'>http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/
That must of been why he recommended it then but just didn't explain it correctly to me. I wasn't taking full odds on any of my come bets. I was just backing them all up like 2 or 3 times. The same went for the pass line. Therefore, I guess what he was telling me was correct as I am not comfortable putting $5 on the pass line then backing it with 10x odds and backing all my come bets with anywhere from $15 to $25. Therefore, I think I just came up with the best way for me to play. Please correct me if I am wrong. With such a small bankroll it would be better for me to do like $5 or $10 on the pass line then backing it a few times and putting up a place bet of $6 on both the 6 and the 8 as they are the most frequently rolled numbers besides the 7. Then, sometimes depending on the shooter to press the 6 or 8 here and there and take the bets down when the shooter gets deeper into their roll? Then, when I get up maybe increase to a 3rd place bet?For what it's worth, I'm a beginner, and your revised bet pattern is exactly what I have been doing, and it's been very successful for me. As I said, I'm not an expert; please do keep that in mind.
If the point is a 6 or 8, and I'm already placed on them (something else was the first point/previous points), I will have the point bet moved to the 5 or 9, then repopulate after the point is made. If the shooter is rolling really well, I'll have all 4 numbers before long, and keep them riding. I haven't been placing the 4 or 10.
Oh, and I can't stay off the all/tall/small or FireBet if either is on the table. And they've paid very well for me, but they're high-house edge bets, too. However, they're way too much fun not to try a 1-5 bet.

With such a small bankroll it would be better for me to do like $5 or $10 on the pass line then backing it a few times..

$10? No - unless you're at a $10 table.
If it's a $5 table, you're better off sticking with a $5 pass and put the extra $5 towards the odds.

Hi guys,
I just started playing craps.

Get out now while you still can!!!My apologies to the readers for the following negatively toned thread ... for the most part, I absolutely despise personal attacks against others in the Dice Community as it usually just a distraction from the real issues at hand. HOWEVER, there are a few out there that enjoy stroking their egos by embellishing to the point that their fictional and theoretical writings may sound smooth, but it does not give a realistic view of live casino craps.
so I apologize for entering into this thread and I hope that most of you will stop now and not read it ... for others that are as much a 'Retard' as I and can not help themselves, I hope the following is a little entertaining and not a total waste of time & bandwidth ..
see Hangover clip for definition of 'Retard':
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=dqQ8AHCrCtw
A few of us that play craps most everyday refer to Mad Professor (MP) as the 'Wizard of Oz' - hiding behind a curtain and his monitor instead of on live casino tables ...
.. now don't get me wrong - I will be the 1st person to advise every craps player to read everything MP writes (don't have to buy his book cause it is just a copy of his internet postings) ... but after you read each of his well crafted words, take a step back and think about what you just read --- for the most part, MP's writings are just basic common sense about the game we all love
as a good friend and mentor of mine noted, waayy tooo many of us get caught up in our own 'aimlessly chasing MP story' --- I am guilty of that, but may the Dice Gods curse me with a day of PSOs if I ever just blindly grab onto MP's coattails like so many do
What we do know about MP (mostly obtained from monitoring his editings on his FaceBook page):

• MP's real name is Paul L.(blah-blah French name)

• he lives in Hamilton, ON (near King Street East between Spadina Avenue and Melrose Ave South) --- that's Canada, a place not well known for it's craps players & it's a far cry from anything close to resembling Las Vegas ..

• MP's email address is: mad_6_8_professor@hotmail.com

• MP has over 101 albums of car pictures on his FaceBook page .. that's albums, with each album averaging about 70 individual pictures of cars or roughly 7,000 car pictures

• no one I know has ever seen him shoot anywhere except in a few of his local casinos in Canada and across the border in NY, yet he claims in his 'Bible' to make nearly $400,000. annually from craps and from constantly traveling all over the world -- all done with mainly $5. to $25. bets on himself -- not betting on anyone else at the table .. to mathematically do this, MP would have to have:

1. 60 rolls every time he touched the dice;
2. have no PSOs;
3. power press on himself;
4. play more than the few hours he claims to play each week;
5. take helicopters and borrow Tiger Woods' jet to travel to every casino he claims to play in all year long (thereby eliminating travel time so that he puts in enough time on the tables)

AND if he did make that much $$$ every year playing craps, then he would have absolutely never enough time:

Craps Wizard Of Oz

• to write all his writings;
• to talk to all his casino friends to get the info about where they play (and then pens it himself as if he were there);
• AND most importantly, MP would never have enough time to post all his car pictures on the internet on at least 2 different websites (Dice Institute and Face Book) ..

if there ever was something so close to imposterization, I would dare say it has been done perfectly by the man behind the curtain and his monitor - the Mad Professor
... and if we give him the benefit of the doubt of making $1,000. per day then he would have to play 400 days per year to equal his claim of $400,000. per year (see page 295 of MP's 'Crapshooting Bible')
- and that would include ZERO Loss Days per year (MP even vaguely alludes that he may have several 'losing for a few days' sessions on page 296)

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- and on top of his fictitious writings, I believe his accomplishments are way overstated .. how can he get $400,000 per year averaging '4 or 5 days per week' (page 21, yet he has recently posted on DI.com that he now plays less) at $1,000. per day ... he just does not add up in the real world

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4.5 days x $1,000 x 52 weeks = $234,000 or more than 40% LESS than what he claims he makes IF he is perfect for the year & has ZERO losing days ... and also assumes he takes zero vacation weeks

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As noted by one of our fellow CAPers:

'Has anyone ever seen both the Mad Professor and the Captain in the same place at the same time?? Oops, wait, no one has ever seen either of them. My bad..Has anyone ever not seen both of them in the same place at the same time??? Wait, that doesn't make any sense. But then, much of what we hear doesn't! LoL'
Dave

On several occasions Mad Professor has made posts that are not factually true, thereby adding credibility that all his exploits are not for real .. consider what the popular but never seen Craps ghost author - Mad Professor - posted the following without an accredited cite on May 6, 2008 on http://diceinstitute.proboards.com/:

.. with the recent announcement by Harrah's that they are increasing the maximum Fire-bet limit from $5 to $25, thereby moving the upper maximum-payout for this wager from $5,000 to $25,000

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so I thought I would hit the Strip to see if there was any truth to this rumor ... dealers & Boxes at Bally's & Caesars knew nothing of this news and as of today -- over a year and a half after Mad Professor made this erroneous post and no one in the world has raised their Fire Bet to $25. ...
1st - the maximum Harrah's Fire Bet is not $5 as MP posted, but $10 on several Vegas properties including Caesar's, Rio, Paris, Bally's and Harrah's --- if the Mad Professor was for real and actually played the Fire Bet on a real table instead of stealing information from outdated internet resources like the Wizard of Odds, he would have easily known the maximum Harrah's Fire Bet was not $5 as he posted;
2nd - it can not be arbitrarily done without the State Gaming Commission approving the higher payouts unless they originally had the $25 option approved with their original application ...
I seriously doubt this is the case ... Mad Professor went on to explain in his post that sometimes he will ask the Boxman to allow higher bets on the Fire Bet and they would make exceptions for him ... again I contend this is not possible without State Gaming Board approval in advance

Quote:

irishsetter Dice Guru « Reply #17 February 17, 2010 at 11:25 » .. I'm going to say something, and I'm sure it'll be also taken out of context by MP and the Short Bus cut and paste brigade. The BoneTracker edge-determination is ALREADY mostly meaningless unless you add some variables. .. So, when you say a player should place ' the lion's share of your betting-weight on your top one or two box-numbers,' it's an oversimplified answer, with a largely overstated ROI figure attached to it. The fact is, I think a player should wager largely on those numbers that have historically appeared. However, I think players need to have alternative plans of action, and a more realistic view of profit potential because our edge is dynamic. If you were to cut up a large sample of BT data, and take snap shots at different times, the edge on given numbers will be dynamic depending on where in the sample set, size of the sub set etc. The problem with using BT as the end all is if the sample size is too small, then the data is subject to normal variance. When the sample size gets too large, there's a smoothing effect. So, feel free to lead players down a primrose path with your simplistic view. I have no doubt that some members will discount my point of view. But I also have no doubt that many players have disappeared from the DI community over the years because they believed your over simplified, overstated and over-hyped predictive model.

Quote:

« Result #9 on Feb 17, 2010, 5:59pm » .. my historical data indicates no such thing can be said of MP, so my predictive model indicates that we'll see more, unwitnessed, unverifiable, over simplified, theoretical clap-trap from him in the future. BTW, nice cherry-picking/manipulation of data for shooterx, MP. The next time I do analysis, I'll only use the data that suits my theory and omit that which does not.

... I will later post more examples to debunk more of his postings